ManpowerGroup's Becky Frankiewicz: Burnout, equity and women at work

This transcript, generated from speech recognition technology, has been edited for web readers, condensed for clarity, and may differ slightly from the audio.

Linda Lacina, World Economic Forum: Welcome to Meet The Leader, the podcast where top leaders share how they're tackling the world's toughest challenges. Today's leader: Becky Frankiewicz. She's the Chief Commercial Officer at staffing giant and workforce solutions company ManpowerGroup. She'll talk to us about the ways COVID changed the world of work for women and what can be done to tackle everything from burnout to true flexibility.

Subscribe to Meet The Leader on Apple, Spotify and wherever you get your favourite podcasts. And please take a moment to rate and review us. I'm Linda Lacina from the World Economic Forum and this is Meet the Leader.

Becky Frankiewicz, ManpowerGroup:: I do believe that it's important to be visible. I don't know that visible has to always be in person. I think visible can be impactful as well.

Linda Lacina, World Economic Forum: Work looks very different these days post-COVID, especially for women.

The pandemic hit certain sectors like education or nursing hard, driving some from those fields all together. And the pressure of balancing remote work while caretaking has led some women to put their careers on pause. Women still in the workplace? Well, they're a little burnt out, especially as those in two-earner families continue to do the lion's share of the childcare.

My colleague Gayle Markowitz talked to Becky Frankiewicz about these trends at the Annual Meeting in Davos this January. Becky is the Chief Commercial Officer at staffing giant and workforce solutions company ManpowerGroup, and she talked about what these shifts mean for the workplace and how leaders can ensure that they are adapting and meeting the needs that staffers have right now.

She talked about why flexible work isn't always remote work, why being visible shouldn't only mean in-person and why some women think a four day workweek might bring more pressures than it relieves.

She also shared the macro trends that will be shaping the workforce going forward, like shrinking populations and the growing need for certain skills, and how workers and leaders can navigate that together.

She talked about all of that. But first, she’ll get us started with a primer on the world of work post-COVID.

Becky Frankiewicz: Yes, so the world of work has changed dramatically post-crisis, during the crisis. In fact, I'd say it's a different workplace and it's a different workforce than it was before the pandemic. We've seen the rise of flexibility with a variety of definitions during the crisis. Now we're seeing the increased desire for people to come back into the office, creating some conflict between workers and employers. And we've seen a continued very tight labour market around the world.

Gayle Markovitz, World Economic Forum: Our own Gender Gap Report that we published in July of 2022 found that progress had very much stalled. I know that you've brought out a couple of pieces of research very recently highlighting that 1.7 million women have dropped out of the workforce. Is the news all bad or are there areas for hope?

Becky Frankiewicz: Yes. I agree that the research on the Gender Gap Report, we lost a generation. Basically, we're set back a generation, and that's really driven by women opting out of the workforce during the crisis, in part, and also by women being disproportionately impacted by the industries that were most hit by the crisis.

And so, the first stage was industries that women were overrepresented in shut down hospitality, leisure, retail, childcare, etcetera, education. So, it wasn't the opt out at first, it was the impact. Then the second piece was the opt out. I'm not coming back. I'm staying. And when you dig in -- so our research dug into: Why? Why is that? What do they want from this future of work, this post-pandemic part of the workplace?

Gayle Markovitz: So what do they want?

Becky Frankiewicz: So, first I'd say we spoke to women across Europe and the US, and to summarise what we heard is women believe employers need to do more. They're feeling burned out, underappreciated and in many cases undervalued. And these are their words. We've also asked, so what do you want when you come back for the future of a post-pandemic workforce or workplace? And they've told us, first, they want autonomy on their terms, so they want work that works for them. They want flexibility, which doesn't always equal remote working. They want equality in wages. So very reasonable. I want equal pay, equal pay for equal work. And then finally, and this is interesting, they want more empathy from their managers, now that managers have seen their whole self during the crisis. They want a manager that understands what they're going through, whether it's as a working mother, whether it's as a caregiver. They want managers to understand their situation.

Gayle Markovitz: And how do you think managers can grow empathy?

Becky Frankiewicz: Yes, so the EQ is quite critical, actually. I think part of it is you grow empathy. Part of it is you allow your empathy to show. And so, I think there are two different things. I'll start with the latter.

As we've gone through the crisis, one of the things that has grown engagement as you look across companies is the fact that we've now brought work home and we've brought home to work. So, I've seen people's kids, I've had cats jump through screens. We've really seen people's full lives. We've seen what's in their background and what's important to them. And as we go back into the workplace, we can't forget that we've seen that. You can't unsee what you've seen. And so, part of allowing your empathy to show is not saying, oh, just because we're back in a building in some cases, or seeing each other on more frequency than we did before, that we forget the fact that we've seen each other's full lives. I think it's showing that and keeping that heart, if you will, in the workplace. And in terms of growing empathy, I think a lot of learning comes from asking questions. Arm yourself with the right questions as a manager to say, how is your weekend? How are the kids, the cat? You know, how’s Cisco, the cat that I saw on the screen, you know, three months ago. So, bring questions into the relationship and that'll allow you to connect in a meaningful way.

Gayle Markovitz: Another big hot potato, really, is the question of working from home, hybrid work. It seems very split and very divided. Some women are finding it very beneficial, some it's very difficult, especially when they have very young children at home. What's your stance on that? Do you think it's a good thing for women and how can businesses navigate it?

Becky Frankiewicz: So one of the top findings we had is that women want flexibility, but that definition of flexibility is truly woman by woman and candidly man by man. It's true across the genders.

And what we've found with women is they do appreciate — about a quarter of women — would love to have a four day workweek, but they don't want to work seven days and be paid for four. And so, there's a little scepticism, you know, can I actually work four days and be paid for four days of work?

And they're also looking for flexibility in terms of starting in time. Most jobs in the world require onsite. Fully remote is really a white-collar benefit, but most jobs require onsite and you can still have flexibility in onsite work. We've seen a lot of women ask, can I shift my start time just by 30 minutes so that I can drop my kids off at school? Or can I pop out in the middle of the day to go pick my kids up and I'll come back into the office once I get them settled? And so having that kind of flexibility in the workplace is definitely something women want.

Now, at the same time, women are concerned about not being in the workplace. They're concerned about the ability to have sociability, relationships, how do I learn about the job? And they're also concerned about the fact that if I'm not seen, will I not be promoted at the same rate. And so, whereas we hear men say, I want to come back in the office for networking.

And the other thing women appreciate is the separation of work and home. So, it's not like they don't want to come in at all. They want to come in on their own terms, and they love the fact that they can have that separation of now I can leave work at work and home at home, and then I can mix them when I choose to.

Gayle Markovitz: Do you think we are going to see a scenario where women are not seen as much because they're going to want the more flexible terms and they're going to be at home a little bit more and the men are all going to be in the office because it's somehow easier.

Becky Frankiewicz: I hope that's not what we see. What I think we are seeing now is, again, both genders wanting to come in for very different reasons, whereas before there wasn't the option of why you came in or didn't come in. But now we're seeing different motivations for coming in. And I do believe that it's important to be visible. I don't know that visible has to always be in person. I think visible can be impactful as well. Before the crisis, we spent a lot of time talking about presenteeism versus performance. Before the crisis. I think it's an even increased risk now as we navigate through, you know, a new future that's not written yet.

Gayle Markovitz: Mental health at work. Mental health has really sort of stormed onto the agenda since the pandemic. And the news isn't good, generally. How does it differ between men and women?

Becky Frankiewicz: Yes. So, we did this research because women are feeling quite burned out. In fact, the burnout rate is even higher among working women than it is among working men. Both are burnt out, to be fair, but higher among women. And what we found is in a two-income earner family, one in three women are doing 100% of the childcare even when they're working, and that compares to one in ten men. And so, it is a truth that in many households women are still doing disproportionate amount of childcare and work in terms of taking care of the home.

And so I think burnout is something that we own as individuals, but we also own as companies to make sure, again, that we're exercising empathy, we're providing flexibility and we're setting expectations around when, where and how you can contribute so that people can opt in and out to reduce their burnout so they can feel like they can accomplish what they want to. And again, I think the individual has to own a lot of what do you want to accomplish?

Gayle Markovitz: How do you think that equation can be changed with women taking on the kind of the main burden of childcare or responsibility of childcare?

Becky Frankiewicz: I think in part we have to own our own choices. And so, you know, I'm a mother of three. I opted into a lot of the childcare that I wanted to do, and I also wanted to have an amazing career. And so, I have to own those choices. I think too, and one of the things we've found through the crisis, it's been fascinating in India, where their cultural norms are quite different, is that now the families and the male partners have seen that the women are bringing the same amount of work home. And so, I think transparency, visibility to workloads, whether it's the work workload or whether it's the home workload starts, the conversation that I hope will lead us to own our choices and also make different choices as women in the future.

Gayle Markovitz: How did your three kids respond to seeing you very much out there and and a very full time active member of the workforce? Do you think that had an impact?

Becky Frankiewicz: Well, they've never seen anything differently. And so it's been the life they've led. I was very fortunate that my mother led the same life. And so it's what I knew. But I do live in a community where it's not the standard where the mom is working outside the home. And so that raised some questions, you know, like, why do you do this and other people don't, when they were younger. And now that they've grown into young adults, I think they're and they're quite empowered to make the choices they want to make in the future. And they know they can choose to work in the home and they can choose to work out of the home. And in my case, they can choose to do both.

Gayle Markovitz: So, something that's come out here at Davos from many of the economists who are here is that we are going to see rising unemployment. It really might be a very different scenario where employers perhaps don't need to be so caring towards their workforces because they've got the pick of whoever they like and they're actually laying people off. How do you think that's going to change things?

Becky Frankiewicz: I think that would be true if we hadn't gone through a structural change in the labour availability. So, what I mean by that is, you know, we're seeing population rates around the world hit 100-year lows year after year after year. And so we're not reproducing at a rate of a new workforce as we have in the past. We're going to have fewer people in the world to contribute to economic growth. With that, a persistent talent shortage of sorts, it won't be necessarily as difficult as it is today, but we could use some increased supply to fill some of the high in-demand roles we have around the world. And so I don't think that the algorithm will change in terms of the power base sitting with employees versus employers, solely because the labour supply is going to continue to be constrained.

Gayle Markovitz: The big issue is skills and reskilling. How can employers help with that?

Becky Frankiewicz: And so first some startling data. 50% of the global population will need to be reskilled in the next two years, not ten years in the next two years. Skills are changing at the pace of technology, and we're going to be in a continuous cycle. So, I think the word upskilling and reskilling and we need new language because the language needs to be how do we unlearn, learn, relearn, unlearn, learn, relearn in a succession over and over again, a cycle, because that's going to be the future of how fast things change. And so, in terms of reskilling, it is a necessity. It is a capability. I think it's rooted in curiosity. And so I think one of the real huge benefits we should have as employees and what employers should be looking for is the sense of curiosity, because that's what's going to be required to continuously learn as we go in the future.

Gayle Markovitz: Have you learned, unlearned, relearned in your career?

Becky Frankiewicz: Constantly. In my career and in my home life to be quite honest with you. Yes, I was very fortunate early on to have this concept of skill. Which we all talk about now. Everybody talks about, you know, skills versus jobs. And we haven't globally quite made that transition of skills versus jobs. But early on I realised there were some core skills that I had that I thought could play in various dimensions. And that's really how I've built my career. And it's one of the things that I'm a firm believer in because with the days of I went to university and I have a finance degree and therefore I'm going to do a finance job, they're increasingly coming to an end. They haven't stopped yet, but increasingly changing, because now the question that graduates should ask themselves is what skills do I get with this finance degree and where do I choose to play those in the global marketplace for labour?

Gayle Markovitz: Have you ever in your career hit a wall and just felt like there's nothing to learn, there's nowhere to go?

Becky Frankiewicz: Yes, interesting question for me because I love work. I think work gives you value. Work has integrity. Work is a way that we can all contribute with our own uniqueness because think about we may all have the same exact job title. There may be ten people, same job title. How they execute that job is often quite personal and quite unique, and I think as employers we need to recognise those differences because those are skill-based and we can all achieve the outcome in a very different way. I would say I have a thirst for learning. I'm quite curious. So even in a role that some people may look at and say, you know, you've done that before, what are you going to learn from that? I tend to always find something that intrigues me or something when you look at it, a few different angles has different learning opportunities. I've never felt I've been in a situation where I wasn't learning, not yet.

Gayle Markovitz: As a leader, how do you prioritise when there's just so much coming at you? How do you choose which is the thing that needs focus.

Becky Frankiewicz: Yes. I was sharing earlier today, I know there's been some press this week on 2023 being the year of the CEO, I would say 2023 is the year of the manager. Because there's research out that says the most important thing to the workforce today is clarity. And so, I think managers are where that point of clarity and the point of care intersect. And that's why I think 2023 is the year of the manager. And so, to prioritise my personal style is to say, okay, what are the most important things that are going to have the biggest impact today and then over the course of the year in terms of a planning cycle. And then I'm ruthless about the things I don't do. Like we're not going to do that. You know, strategy, they say, is important of what you're choosing to do and what you're not choosing to do. And I think that's not just strategy. I think that's execution as well.

So, we have to choose in a world that is that is constantly giving us more and more and more. You have to be able to constantly prioritise and evaluate what's going to have the biggest impact. And that's what I try to do, and I think it's going to be essential in 2023 as we navigate what is increasingly uncertain.

Gayle Markovitz: Our risks report, for example, coined polycrisis, it's a sort of new era. How do you keep the long-term view of being strategic while dealing with immediate crises? It's kind of the million-dollar question.

Becky Frankiewicz: Well, I mean, it is. It is the million dollar question, but I'm not sure I think it's a new question. I mean, we are living in a time where multiple things are hitting us as leaders and as employees at the same time. Yet, I think if we spoke to the generation behind us, the generation before them in their own context, they would have a similar experience, maybe not with the same speed that we're facing it, but I think we as human beings are wired to be able to analyse the situation and, you know, flee or fight. I think that's that comes into the business world too. I think what we're facing today requires more clarity, it requires more resilience.

And in terms of the long term, it requires you constantly deciding is the long term the right goal? Because the environment could fully change. I mean, even the labour environment or the economic environment. In November I was in Europe and it was quite concerning as we looked into 2023 and as I've spent a few weeks in Europe this year already, it's still not the rosiest outlook, but in a short period of eight weeks it's better than it was. And so, I think we constantly have to evaluate, you know, is this the destination, yes or no? Whereas before we would just set it and say, we're hitting that destination no matter what. So, you have to constantly decide is the five year vision the right vision, and then am I taking the right steps? And the right step yesterday may not be the right step necessarily today. And so, I think the agility required of leaders today, I do think that that's quite different. And the speed with which we have to evaluate optionality is something we've never seen.

Gayle Markovitz: What do you think leaders should prioritise as they emerge from Davos and head into the rest of this year?

Becky Frankiewicz: At the top of the agenda you prioritise people. I mean it is and will continue to be people that drive the economic agenda. There was a period not long ago when I was personally told that, you know, all the truck drivers in the world are going to lose their job because robots are going to be driving trucks. And what I'd say we've learned now is that humans actually augment technology, not be replaced by technology. And given the systemic talent shortages that I believe we've now walked into, we're going to need technology to help us be more efficient, which of course then means we have to be upskilling ourselves to leverage that technology. And so I think when I leave Davos, one thing that remains is people are at the top of the agenda, skills are at the top of the agenda versus thinking about jobs we have to think about skills, and I think really evaluating optionality for growth in a very fast changing environment.

Gayle Markovitz: Back to the jobs topic, are there any new jobs that are emerging that you think are going to become the sort of top things? You've got three daughters. What would you hope that they would go into.

Becky Frankiewicz: Well, first, I'll say that the data shows 67% of the jobs that they will face when they graduate college don't exist today. Literally, that's how fast jobs are changing. So, again, I would coach them around skills, data analytics skills, the ability to synthesise multiple pieces of inputs to make decision making. You know, anything around security is going to be very important as we go forward in a more technical environment. And I would say to emphasise soft skills. Soft skills are so in demand. In fact, we did a whole survey and the top soft skill that's in demand and yet most difficult to find is communications. And so then we looked at, well, surely that's not true in I.T., you know, one of the hottest sectors in the world. Yes, true. In I.T., the top job, the top soft skill required that's most difficult to find is communication. And so I think the universal need for people who can express an idea and debate a concept for optionality, back to that, that piece, is going to be a very important skill. I'm very pleased that all three of my girls have done some studies around communications. I think it's essential as we go in the future.

Gayle Markovitz: Do you think higher education is equipping young people well enough?

Becky Frankiewicz: I think I think higher education is going through its own disruption. I would argue maybe not at the speed that we need it to, because if you think about how higher education works, it's usually built around people's expertise, teachers' individual expertise versus the context of that expertise in today's market. And that is where I think the change has happened and therefore needs reaction. And when people come out of university, again I think we're equipping them with some nice hard skills that are within a certain vertical. I think helping students understand the actual underlying capabilities and how they can play those, regardless of what their degree is in, is important. And I absolutely think we need to focus much more on soft skills, communications, leadership. Unleashing potential in other people. Think about these young leaders. They're going to grow into managers and when they manage, everything's moving so quickly that the knowledge they would be expected to have is truly in the people that work for them. And so it increases the need for asking the right questions of the right people. That will be an important skill in the future.

Gayle Markovitz: How do you think tech can help in that space? Do you think there's a future for education in the metaverse?

Becky Frankiewicz: Yes, I do actually think that tech can be a significant help. Someone was talking this week about a personal tutor. So, think about the capability for your children or yourself to have a personal tutor teaching you the Pythagorean theorem with a concept example in real time. And if you're ahead of me in terms of your understanding, it gives you a more difficult concept. And so, I think the concept of technology as a teacher is absolutely on the horizon.

Gayle Markovitz: Is there a book that you recommend?

Becky Frankiewicz: Well, today I've gotten back into fiction as we've gone through the through the crisis. So, I'm reading a book called Nightingale, which is quite lovely. But I think it's important to always have probably a business book and a book for enjoyment, which could be a business book for you. I like to have two going at the same time to make sure that you keep yourself well-rounded.

Gayle Markovitz: And what's a habit that you can't work without?

Becky Frankiewicz: So, I learned this about myself. I'm a jogger. I'd never describe myself as a runner. I'm kind of a slow jogger. I've done a couple of marathons. So, I think I have to claim now that I'm a bit of a long-distance jogger. But as I came and spent the summer for work in Europe, I had gotten off my schedule. And what I realised is I wasn’t showing up as my best self and with limited time, prioritising people, if you're not showing up as your best self, you're letting yourself and your people down. So I had to implement protecting time in the morning, you know, because it would start with breakfast and go through very late European dinners. And so I had to start protecting that time in the morning to make sure I kept true to what helps me start my day off in the best way.

Linda Lacina: That was Becky Frankiewicz and Gayle Markovitz. Thanks to Becky, and thanks so much to you for listening. A transcript of this episode and my colleagues’ episodes Radio Davos and the Book Club Podcast is available at wef.ch/podcasts.

If you like this episode, check out episode 47 from last July, Bridging the gender gap at work: What's needed. In it, I talked to a powerhouse collection of women leaders like Occidental Petroleum’s Vicki Hollub, BlackRock's Pam Chan and ADP's Nela Richardson. They and more share how to make opportunity for others and how to be more visible in your own career.

This episode of Meet The Leader was presented and produced by me, with Juan Toran as studio engineer and Jere Johanson as editor and Gareth Nolan driving studio production.

That's it for now. I'm Linda Lacina. With the World Economic Forum. Have a great day.