Davos 2023 Day 2: the economy and the climate

This transcript has been generated using speech recognition software and may contain errors. Please check its accuracy against the audio.

Robin Pomeroy: It's Tuesday, the 17th of January, and from the World Economic Forum's Annual Meeting 2023, this is Radio Davos.

Nela Richardson: This is a world where there's no certainty. It's very fragmented. There's trade offs everywhere.

Robin Pomeroy: It's a fragmented world. Can humanity learn to cooperate to solve the big issues? Bloomberg climate reporter Akshat Rathi joins me to look at day two of Davos 2023.

Akshat Rathi: I did a count of how many mentions that climate get across the agenda over this week and more than a third of the panels have the word climate.

Robin Pomeroy: And as the World Economic Forum publishes its latest Chief Economist Outlook, this economist helps us make sense of the uncertain year ahead.

Nela Richardson: As unwelcome as higher interest rates are to most businesses and households, what's more unwelcome by far is inflation.

Robin Pomeroy: So, what will happen to inflation? Are we heading for a global recession? ADP's Chief Economist Nela Richardson gives her assessment of the economy in 2023.

Nela Richardson: What I expect is that even as we're seeing slower inflation in 2023, we're likely to see more periodic bursts of inflation upward. This is not a one and done.

Robin Pomeroy: And Davos shines a spotlight on the situation in Iran. I'm joined by Iranian British actress and activist Nazanin Boniadi.

Nazanin Boniadi: Every time we've seen women participate, have central participation in a movement, there's a greater likelihood of democracy prevailing.

Robin Pomeroy [00:01:26] For daily coverage of Davos 2023 subscribe to Radio Davos wherever you get your podcasts, or find us at wef.ch/podcasts and follow the action live and on catch up at wef.ch/wef23 and across social media using the hashtag #wef23. I'm Robin Pomeroy at the World Economic Forum, and with a look at day two of Davos 2023 — it's become a big, big issue — this is Radio Davos.

Welcome to Radio Davos. Welcome to Davos and welcome to Davos, Akshat Rafi. Akshat is my co-host today. All this week I'm co-hosting with fellow podcasters and you're the podcast host of Zero. Tell us about Zero.

Akshat Rathi [00:02:05] So Zero, is the podcast for Bloomberg Green and it's weekly. I try and bring in decision makers, leading thinkers on everything climate very broadly, business, politics, finance and activism, because there's a lot of that happening, too.

Robin Pomeroy [00:02:22] You're telling me this is your first winter Davos, So it's a bit of a shock to the system. If you thought it was going to be like May, it isn't, is it?

Akshat Rathi [00:02:29] No, it isn't. I mean, last week, maybe when there was no snow here, it may have felt a little bit closer to May of 2022, but certainly not now with a sprinkle of snow all around.

Robin Pomeroy [00:02:41] So your podcast is focused very, very much on climate change. How much of an issue is climate change at Davos?

Akshat Rathi [00:02:47] It's become a big, big issue. I did a count of how many mentions that climate get across the agenda over this week, and more than a third of the panels have the word climate showing up, either in the description of the panel discussion or in one of the panelists and their expertise of the subject.

Robin Pomeroy [00:03:11] So you'll be following some of those perhaps, but also you'll be looking out for exclusive interviews that you can use on the podcast. What kind of thing will you be looking to get?

Akshat Rathi [00:03:19] Totally. So, there are two that I've lined up this week for recording for the podcast. I've got the CEO of Swiss Re. Now the reinsurance industry is the frontline of the finance world when it comes to climate impacts, because there hasn't been a year when climate impacts haven't cost less than 100 billion dollars of damage every year for the past decade or so. And that's causing the reinsurance industry, which obviously underwrites the insurance industry, a lot of headaches. And so, I wanted to ask what is Swiss Re doing about it and how are they going about influencing the entire system? I've also got the head of the Bezos Earth Fund, which is now the largest climate philanthropy in the world, and Andrew Steer, who was previously the head of the World Resources Institute, is running that fund. And of course, climate philanthropy will also have an attention here at Davos.

Robin Pomeroy [00:04:17] Yes, it will. In fact, today at 8:30 local time, I'm just looking at the agenda here, it's a big one because you've got Børge Brende, the president, the World Economic Forum, John Kerry, the climate envoy of the president, the United States, the head of the World Economic Forum's Climate and Nature Centre Gim Huay Neo. Mark Carney and several other very interesting people. I mean, it's quite a programme. 8:30 for people who can watch that live, or on catch up. So actually, if we just look at some of the other things on the agenda today at the same time, so people will have to choose, but they can see it on catch up. There's a session De-Globalisation or Re-Globalisation. What does that mean to you?

Akshat Rathi [00:04:58] So one thing that certainly changed because of the pandemic is that a lot of companies are thinking about reshoring or at least tightening up their supply chains, because they don't want to end up in a situation that we had previously. That's going to mean a lot of jobs coming into the US or into Europe. But the other trend that's happening is that a lot of what's going to be required to deal with climate change is going to be building stuff in Europe and in the US and in China. Those jobs are also going to be in those places, a trend that we have seen emerge over the past, I would say 18 months is that there is now for the first time competition among the big powers over climate rather than just big collaborative meetings that used to happen. The EU passed its Green Deal a couple of years ago and has now laid down the rules. And then the US passed its biggest climate bill and the EU suddenly realised, “oh my goodness, we are not actually giving as many state support subsidies to our industry and maybe they will run away to the US, so we need to come up with our own plan.” And of course, as the US and Europe compete against each other, they also have to compete against China, which is the hub of every green technology solar, wind, batteries, electric cars and even hydrogen now. So, we are entering this new era, which the world is pretty used to, which is competition. But for climate solutions.

Robin Pomeroy [00:06:31] And competing on who can subsidise their industries the best to draw that investment does that also raised the spectre of trade disputes as well for free economies. Also, the EU with it’s what do they call it? Basically, the tax on goods that have been made without the emissions regulations that they would have been made within the EU. I foresee a lot of WTO panels on this.

Akshat Rathi [00:07:00] Absolutely. So, it's called the carbon border adjustment mechanism. As for all EU things, it's got its own acronym, CBAM. Now, what the CBAM is going to do is absolutely going to lay out tariffs on imported goods that do not have the same carbon price attached to them as they do in the EU, where there is a carbon price on a majority of industrial goods. And as we enter the sphere of laying down climate solutions to change the physical global economy, there will be more and more of climate entering the very sphere that the World Economic Forum hosts and brings all these decision makers, including trade but also macroeconomics, central banks. All of these issues are going to have a climate flavour.

Robin Pomeroy [00:07:51] I think it'll be really interesting, Akshat, to your point that climate kind of underlines so many of the discussions here to see in this session at 8:30 today. Climate isn't mentioned in the title, but there's no way they can ignore it when it comes to globalisation or globalisation or re-globalisation or whatever. So I’ll be looking out for that. I won't go through the speakers. It's a great panel, believe me. There's going to be lots of special addresses. We're going to have the First Lady of Ukraine, Ursula von der Leyen of the Vice Premier of China, Sanna Marin from Finland, Pedro Sanchez of Spain, the President of Algeria. But going back to the panel discussions, there’s one hosted by Francine Lacque, a colleague of yours at Bloomberg TV, called Stemming the Cost of Living Crisis with some very prominent economists there. The cost-of-living crisis is at the forefront of most people's minds right now. All over the world, the developed world, the developing world. Does that push climate change off the agenda in any way?

Akshat Rathi [00:08:49] It does not. And we've seen that over the past year as a cost-of-living crisis has been squeezing especially people here in Europe more than other parts of the world, because the solutions for tackling climate change are also tied to the solutions to deal with the cost-of-living crisis. So, renewable energy is cheaper than fossil fuel energy, and fossil fuel prices are very high right now. So, the more and faster you build out renewables, the cheaper your energy is going to be. Same thing with food, which is another inflationary metric that's caused the cost-of-living crisis to grow. A lot of food production is tied to climate impacts and what's going to happen to the weather. Tackling climate change is going to reduce those risks and ensure that food supply is more stable. So, it's not in opposition. Yes, in front of mind for politicians, for businesspeople, it's absolutely clear that they need to have short term solutions to the cost-of-living crisis. But this cost-of-living crisis is going to go on for a few years now, and climate solutions have to play a role.

Robin Pomeroy [00:09:55] I think that's going to be just a huge theme here. Cost of living crisis and climate change — two huge issues. But where they intersect for good and ill, I think will really be an issue here. Well, Akshat thanks for joining us on Radio Davos. I recommend people to look out for your podcast Zero. In fact, we did a whole episode. I interviewed you before about the podcast for you shortly after you launched it. Thanks very much for joining us today on Radio Davos.

Akshat Rathi [00:10:21] Thanks for having me.

Robin Pomeroy [00:10:23] And I'm joined now in the Radio Davos booth by Roberto Bocca, who's Head of Energy at the World Economic Forum. Hi, Roberto. How are you?

Roberto Bocca [00:10:31] Very good, thank you. How are you?

Robin Pomeroy [00:10:33] Good. You're going to talk to us about a couple of important things happening today on your horizon in the energy field. What's going on in Davos today?

Roberto Bocca [00:10:42] First of all, at 8:30, we have a session on mastering the new energy economics. This session will be broadcasted live so people can follow live or even in recorded version later. And this is really going to be the first main session on energy where all the challenges that we are well aware of will be tackled, discussed. So, what are the shocks created by the crisis? What are the responses to the crisis? But also, what are the medium- and long-term objectives of looking at the energy transition?

Robin Pomeroy [00:11:13] Yeah, and we came into this meeting with energy really one of the big focuses of the meeting. I mean, why is it that energy, which is obviously always very important for people in the economy, but why is it at this particular year's Davos meeting it's such a big deal, do you think?

Roberto Bocca [00:11:28] It is a classical thing — when everything is running smoothly we talk a bit less about it. Now there is a crisis and everybody is realising how important is energy, our energy’s underpinning all elements of our life. And this is true in any country we are at the moment and these impacts of these crises are impacting everyone. So that's why it is so important in this moment.

Robin Pomeroy [00:11:52] Okay, so you talked about a session this morning, 8:30 Mastering New Energy Economics. There's another session a bit later on, I think.

Roberto Bocca [00:11:59] Indeed, there is a session at 5:30 this afternoon on the interplay of food, energy and water, because the importance of energy is not just being the lifeblood of the economy, as we call it, but it is also an intersection point with many other system. In this case, we will discuss the food and water intersection. This is so critical and is important. And when we think of the transition of the energy system, we build an energy system that is more resilient but also more fitting the world of the future where also water and food are so important.

Robin Pomeroy [00:12:30] Okay, so people can follow those live or on catch up. On our website weforum.org. Roberto Bocca of the World Economic Forum, thanks very much for joining us.

Roberto Bocca [00:12:39] Thank you, Robin.

Robin Pomeroy [00:12:40] I'm joined now by Saadia Zahidi, head of the World Economic Forum's Centre for the New Economy and Society. Hi Saadia, how are you?

Saadia Zahidi [00:12:47] Hello.

Robin Pomeroy [00:12:48] Great to have you here. Now you oversee areas in as head of the Centre for the New Economy and Society within the World Economic Forum, such as the global economy, such as jobs, gender equality, many other things. So, a lot of what's being spoken about at this meeting here in Davos really falls kind of onto your plate in a way.

If you were to pick out a few highlights of this meeting, of the themes of the sessions or what people are talking about. What would those be for you?

Saadia Zahidi [00:13:18] Four big areas preparedness, prosperity, people and parity. Let's start with the preparedness piece. So last week we launched our Global Risks report that gives a sense of where are things going to be in 2023, how do things look up to 2025, and then how do things look up until 2033? And what we're trying to do here in Davos is actually then get that message integrated in all the conversations of global leaders and ensure that we prepare much better for that risk outlook. The second element is around prosperity and trying to understand where is the global economy currently headed and how we can change the very challenging direction that we're currently going in. So we launched our Chief Economist Outlook. We are this week meeting with the Growth Consortium that's going to be trying to design what is the framework for future growth that is more inclusive, more resilient and more sustainable.

Robin Pomeroy [00:14:14] What is this consortium? What kind of people will be meeting there?

Saadia Zahidi [00:14:17] CEOs, ministers of economy, ministers of finance and experts, academics and economists that have very differing views about what should be done about the future of growth. But that's exactly what we need, a critical thinking and challenging conversation, so that we can get this right.

Robin Pomeroy [00:14:34] This issue of growth, it's so important right now as we come out of the pandemic with inflation and with the climate crisis, how can we achieve growth? Because some people say we need less growth, we need to shrink our economies. I'm guessing that's probably not the direction you personally would be pushing for.

Saadia Zahidi [00:14:52] I think we need to think very differently about growth. So simply achieving 3% growth, for example, that can come from war, that can come from very negative externalities for the planet, that can come at the price of people's dignity and health. Or it can be done in a way that improves living standards. That actually changes the direction of our economies to one that leads to a sustainable relationship with the planet. And it can be done in a way that really lifts people up and provides opportunity for all. That's what we have to change. And so, it's not so much about what is the growth target. It's about the type of growth. And that's a difficult and challenging conversation, and that's one that we need to have here and we are having it. And one additional piece that we're looking at in this whole area of prosperity is how do we build the markets of tomorrow, right? So, if we all think about the fourth industrial revolution, so many new technologies coming out every single day, would we really be able to say credibly that every single one of those technologies has improved our lives? Probably not. So how do we convert some of these technologies into actual markets of tomorrow? And we did a survey of over 126 countries to understand which are the technologies that really matter, and you will not be surprised. Top technology: agriculture. Second: education. Third: healthcare-related technologies. And of course, then some of those additional technologies that are absolutely critical for the climate trend transition as well. So it's really the technologies that relate to purpose, that relate to better living standards, that relate to a better planet, that most economies are looking to integrate, and yet we're not able to convert them from niche technologies and pockets of innovation into real markets that function around them. So that's another piece that we're taking off.

The people-related pillar is all about developing human capital and then deploying it in the right way. So, one piece of that is the Reskilling Revolution champions, they set out a target three years ago to reach a billion people with better education, skills and learning opportunities. This week they're announcing that they have reached 350 million people. So very tangible, credible impact to prepare people for the economy of tomorrow. The second element of that is the jobs consortium that is all about having better foresight and using that to prepare people and at the same time ensuring better quality and standards and better wages in the workplace.

And then the fourth area is all about parity. None of this really works if we take a completely generic view. We have to take into account that there are people that will lose out, for example, from the green transition. We do have to take into account that many economies are set up in a way that women lose out, that people who are LGBTQI lose out, people who have disabilities lose out or people that are racialised lose out as well. And so that's where we're trying to build diversity, equity and inclusion into a new framework for businesses and ensuring that that gets adopted. A lot happening on that this week.

Robin Pomeroy [00:17:56] Thanks, Saadia, for joining us on Radio Davos.

Saadia Zahidi [00:17:59] Thank you.

Robin Pomeroy [00:18:00] Saadia Zahidi’s Centre for the New Economy Society has just published the latest Chief Economists Outlook. It's a global survey of chief economists that the Forum does around every quarter. And in this one, two thirds of the economists surveyed said they expect a global recession in 2023. I asked ADP Chief Economist Nela Richardson for her take on the report.

Nela Richardson [00:18:21] I'm not one to forecast recessions, that's not one of the bullet points I my job description. I think the economy, the global economy, is pretty complicated right now. But what we can be assured of is that there is a lot of uncertainty around the world and that the idea of a global recession is somewhat academic. What we do know is that there will be a global slowdown and it will be a strong slowdown compared to the shared growth that we saw in 2021. There will be a sharp deceleration in 2023. We know that.

We also know that the three major economies in the world are slowing significantly, but for different reasons. So, the fact that this is a non-synchronous slowdown is really impactful and feeds into that underlying uncertainty. You have China slowing because of its COVID zero policy that it's just changed and now feeling even more the effects of that policy and its economic growth. You have the United States slowing down because of a bloated fiscal balance sheet and high levels of inflation. You have Europe slowing down because of a war in Ukraine and the cost-of-living crisis that was triggered by that war. Each region slowing down for different reasons and the spill-over effects because while these reasons are fragmented, they all carry the risk of contagion to other economies. So, yes, recessions are hard to call in real time. But I think when you look at the lay of the land globally, a slowdown is likely.

Robin Pomeroy [00:20:04] You mentioned inflation there in relation to Europe, but it's also an issue all over the world, isn't it? The report seems to suggest economists in this survey are seeing it easing. It's kind of a cautious easing, is what they're seeing. So, by the end of this year. Inflation, again, you can't talk about global inflation, it's different like economic growth in different regions, but that inflation will be coming under control. I think that's so important because it affects the monetary policy. Of course, it affects that cost-of-living crisis. What are the risks that that won't happen? Where do you see inflation going this year?

Nela Richardson [00:20:46] So let's start with what inflation is. It's an acceleration in price levels. So, when economists talk about the cost-of-living crisis easing, they're not talking about the level. Those prices have largely gone up and they're unlikely to go back down. What they're saying, what we are saying, is perception is that the rate of increase is slowing. Where does that leave the typical worker? Well, it means that you're still seeing higher prices than you saw two years ago. And those levels may be slowing, but your wages are not going up in lockstep with those price increases. So, for most workers around the world, that translates into a negative real earnings. And that's an important factor as we look at that in the year ahead and how it segways into global growth. That's the first thing.

The second thing about inflation is that it is likely to recede, but it's not likely to go back to sleep like it did for the past 40 years in most major economies in the world, large economies in the world, I think those days are gone. I think what we're seeing in terms of climate change, supply shocks, the disinflationary forces that kept inflation tame for decades have been disrupted, aging in advanced countries — the list goes on. And so what I expect is that even as we're seeing slower inflation in 2023, hopefully 2024 and 2025, we're likely to see more periodic bursts of inflation upward. This is not a one-and-done, you know, this is not a decades-long slumber of inflation back to 2% inflation growth in the United States or other places in the world. That inflation is likely to be more episodic than the world has become accustomed to. So, this battle of inflation is not going away, unfortunately, but it will lessen in 2023 and give us a chance to contain it.

Robin Pomeroy [00:22:55] This easing off of inflation is not a massively great story for people whose wages have lagged behind, which is the majority of people around the world, I'm guessing. But perhaps the silver lining of that easing will mean that for policymakers, monetary policy makers who've had to increase interest rates to combat inflation, maybe the pressure comes off of them for now. And this is something that the report looks at — that I think a lot of economists imagine that although rates might continue going up in Europe and the United States, it will be at a slower pace. And, you know, there's a peak that can be seen now. Do you agree with that?

Nela Richardson [00:23:42] First of all, it's been an abrupt change from just a few short years ago where there were negative interest rates in many parts of Europe. So, we've come a long way in a very short period of time. But I agree with you on the fact that there is a terminal rate, there is an end point to rate hikes in major central banks. And it's likely, though, that the central authorities stay at those higher levels for some time in order to make sure and ensure that inflation is indeed on the way down. Because as unwelcome as higher interest rates are to most businesses and households, what's more unwelcomed by far is inflation. So, getting inflation back down is job number one of monetary authorities across the world. And the degree in which they are successful with that this year will be helpful for economies all over the world, even if that means higher interest rates.

Robin Pomeroy [00:24:42] And what about wage pressures on that? Because as we've said, people's wages haven't kept up. There's huge pressure in some countries for wages to go up. Public sectors in parts of Europe are going on strike, demanding wage increases. Very often a government will say we can't give in to those wage demands even just to keep you up with inflation, because that in itself will be inflationary. Do you agree with that? And where do you see kind of the fiscal policies going in that respect?

Nela Richardson [00:25:15] You know, I think that's the rub of the entire wage pressure story that we've seen over the last couple of years. There's this myth that workers are in the driver's seat calling the shots, but that myth inwinds when you look at wages, because real wages have fallen. In fact, there have been reports that real global wages have fallen for the first time in 100 years. I mean, that's significant and that's the reality. My hope is that we can get inflation down faster than wages moderate.

Robin Pomeroy [00:25:46] I wonder whether the pressures, the economic pressures, might lead companies to reduce their workforces, though.

Nela Richardson [00:25:53] That is a risk that has to be contextualised, because if you look at that risk, the real reality that companies are facing higher labour costs and a slowing economy that has to be matched with the fact that there are labour shortages. Here in the United States, it's been very difficult to get workers back. Labour force participation is still a full percentage point below where it was before the pandemic and layoffs are still quite low. There's still strong advertising for job postings. Companies are reluctant here in the US to lay off workers, because they had such a hard time bringing them in the front door in the first place. If you amplify that around the world, there is another risk that has to be taken to account. Not just the risk that companies lay off, but the risk that companies can't fulfil their headcount, and that risk is also emboldened by the fact that immigration has been low around the world as well. So, this is a world where there's no certainty, it's very fragmented, there's tradeoffs everywhere. The tradeoff of laying off today means you may not find those workers as easily tomorrow. And I think companies are challenged in new ways to figure out how to keep labour costs down while still having an ample supply of workers to be more productive into other businesses. It's not separate and apart. It's entwined with every other risk. The centrality of climate in terms of supply disruptions, labour shortages, the health of the workforce and the global economy is, I think, part of the future discussions and so intertwined. We used to think of climate and climate disruption as something that was separate from monetary policy or economic policy or social policy, but for everything from clean water, even in major cities, to a healthy workforce to a strong and resilient supply chain, climate plays a role. It makes the risks that we're seeing — it can amplify them or subdue them. If you have a warm winter, the risk of energy price increases may be mitigated. But if you have that hot summer, those risks actually unwound again. And so getting a global climate policy, in my view, and I think in the views of many economists, is more important.

Robin Pomeroy [00:28:28] At 3:00 this afternoon there's a session called Women's Rights in Iran. What next on the panel, there will be British Iranian actress and activist Nazanin Boniadi, known most recently for her role in The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power TV series. Nazanin came to the Davos booth to talk about Iran and the power of women for positive change. We'll put out the full interview in a later episode of Radio Davos. But here's just a flavour of what she had to say.

Nazanin Boniadi [00:28:55] When you look at the slogan “woman, life, freedom” of course it means advocating for women, a better life and for freedom. And that applies to people everywhere. And I think what's struck a chord on an international level, in a similar way that the anti-apartheid movement did in South Africa, is we understand that if women don't have their rights, that usually leads to society at large being deprived of that basic human rights. And that's why women, politically active women, are such a threat to autocrats and authoritarians. And every time we've seen women participate, have central participation in a movement, as we did in Argentina, as we did in Chile, for example, there's a greater likelihood of democracy prevailing.

Robin Pomeroy [00:29:56] Nazanin Boniadi. Look out for the episode of Radio Davos that will appear soon with the rest of that interview. Another Middle Eastern artist who uses her platform to campaign for human rights is the Jordanian singer Farah Siraj. Farah is very often referred to as the music ambassador of Jordan. This is Farah you’re hearing now performing at yesterday's opening concert. I started by asking Farah about her work in raising awareness about the consequences of war and violence, advocating for women's rights, refugee rights and animal rights.

Farah Siraj [00:30:27] Well, you know, I feel like music really can have a very powerful impact, and especially when it has a message. So, for me, you know, growing up in Jordan, I had a lot of friends that were refugees or descendants of refugees, particularly Palestinian refugees, and also, you know, war was just around the corner. For me, it became very evident that I wanted to lend a voice just to amplify voices of people who wanted to be heard and to kind of humanise the refugee experience, just because very often they are seen as outsiders that are not welcome. So, a lot of my music is to raise awareness about the consequences of war and violence, and particularly the consequences for women and children.

Robin Pomeroy [00:31:08] Do those issues blend into your work, into your music?

Farah Siraj [00:31:12] Yes, absolutely. And in fact, I have a song that I didn't realise the impact that it would have when I wrote it and recorded it, but I wrote it actually addressing the women refugees in Darfur. It became a campaign song against the genocide in Darfur and ended up being played at the United Nations Security Council before passing a legislation, I believe to call it a genocide. And what impacted me was that there were activists that took my song to the refugee camps in Darfur, and they played it for the women, many of whom have been widowed and had lost their children and, you know, had faced unimaginable experiences. The song was in Arabic, so it didn't need any translation. And the women, when they heard it, they got up and started dancing and chanting and clapping in celebration that they felt heard and they felt seen. And they didn't know that the outside world knew that that was happening to them. The activists recorded their reaction, sent it back to me, and they were recording other compositions based on their reaction. And it just became, for me, generally a song to refugee women. And it says, “we've not forgotten you, we've not forgotten your suffering, we’ve not forgotten your rights or your children's rights.”

It was impactful for me to see the power of music. Up until then of course, I knew music is very impactful and can have, if you have a message, it can be powerful. But I personally had a very emotional moment when I saw the reaction and this interaction, even though we never met, but there was a connection and a link and it just to me proved how important it is for music and art in general to be a powerful, moving force to change.

Robin Pomeroy [00:32:59] Farah Siraj. You can watch the opening concert that she sang in, which also featured our guests from yesterday, Joseph and James Tawadros, on the website weforum.org. You can follow all the action there live and on catch up and across social media using the hashtag #wef23. For daily coverage of Davos 2023, subscribe to Radio Davos, where ever you get your podcasts or visit wef.ch/podcasts. This episode of Radio Davos was written and presented by me, Robin Pomeroy. Editing was by Taz Kelleher. Studio engineering was by Juan Toron. We will be back tomorrow. But for now, thanks to you for listening and goodbye.